Dissecting the Comtessa

****WARNING: this post contains SPOILERS for the Comtessa storyline in Echo Bazaar, found in Ladybones Road at Watchful 25+. READ NO FURTHER if you don't want to know what happens. SRSLY.****

 

The other day, EBZ's writing team sat down over breakfast in a posh central London hotel spent a day or two creating one of those multicoloured email 'conversations' in order to have another look at the Comtessa storyline. It's a popular story and its conclusion, especially, has been the subject of quite a bit of player feedback. Alexis thought it was worth thinking the ending through again. (He was right. As we add new content and tease out ideas about exactly why people play EBZ/what they get out of it/what we want to put in it/&c, we need to go back to some of the old stuff and see how and if it's all still fitting together (in the loosest possible sense of 'fitting' and 'together', of course).)

The last storylet in the Comtessa arc presents the player with a stark choice. You've been hired by her father to find the Comtessa; you've followed the trail she's left behind and found her down in the Clay Quarters. You are now confronted by her Clay Man lover, who explains that he's in the process of turning her into stone, so they can be together always. The important information you get is a/ that the process is irreversible and b/ that you can see her frightened green eyes looking out from her half-made statue. And you have just two options. Smash the statue; or turn and leave.

If you've read Alexis' post on decisions, you'll know we define the resolution to the Comtessa's story as a reflective choice. That is to say, it's a choice you make based entirely on how you view your character, and what you think your character's priorities are. To make the decision, you first have to decide what kind of decision you want to see it as. Do you see it as a moral choice? (What would be the right thing to do? Do I want to do the right thing?) Or a pragmatic one? (You're here because her father paid you, after all. What's the sensible thing to do?) Or is it purely an internal choice? Do you want to be kind or cruel? (and is this because you've defined your character that way and you want to remain in character, even if you don't like doing it?) Or is it a (possibly conflicting) combination of any/all of the above? We don't want to tell you. We want you-the-player to have the freedom and the space to be able to make these decisions in the way that you prefer to make them.

We started talking about the fact that there was a problem with this concluding storylet. The problem was that if you chose to leave the Comtessa and her lover be, you got a quality bump for Heartless. This struck people as unfair, because it could just as easily be seen as a kindness, just as it could be heartless to smash her to smithereens or it could be the humane option. We don't know whether her fear is of becoming stone, or of being dragged back to her father, after all.

And the basis of the player's decision is not, (or, at least, I think it can't be) anything the game has already said about high society ladies or Clay Men or Victorian morals or mixed marriages or true love or cruelty or kindness or rewards or deceit or just deserts. There is no judgement here, because in making the choice, you bring to bear everything you think about these things. (Or everything you've decided your character thinks - the subject of the overlap between player and character is one for another post or several). This storylet invites the player to play God for a moment. And that's why I think the two choices work: because either one of them could be humane or cruel or lazy or greedy or spiteful or generous or whatever you feel, and what the player does is decide their motivation and then pick the option they think fits it. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' and there is no 'correct' or 'incorrect' either.

Anyway. What we discussed over freshly baked pains au chocolat and delicious grapefruit juice email was a/ whether or not to remove the Heartless bump from the 'leave her be' branch and b/ whether to add a third branch, in which the player can decide to accept the Clay Man's bribe (jewels stolen from Daddy Comte, naturally) to turn a blind eye to the situation. A/ was pretty easily agreed on - as discussed, it could be a heartless move, but it isn't necessarily. Bump removed.

B/ was trickier and took some discussion. It was argued that a third way might allow the player to act more 'naturally' - to avoid, in other words, making the difficult decision. And this is perfectly plausible - what if you've decided your character doesn't care one way or the other, but is as mercenary as they come and just wants to take the cash?

Alexis mentioned poetry at this point. Poetry and game design would give us different answers, he said. And again, he was right. (He usually is). My 2p worth was that I think there's a pseudo-tragic thing going on here in that both choices, kill her or leave her, are nasty, both feel extreme and both feel like sacrifice. I argued that allowing the player to say 'none of my business' diluted that - if you don't know what you'd do, you just take the easy way out. You're not forced to define your own motivation. And maybe that's OK, at other times. But as Paul pointed out, the ambiguity here and the bleakness of the choice is what makes the story memorable. So - no third way, not this time. The game won't tell you your motivation - but you need to have one.

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Comments (55) -

Allandaros
Allandaros
7/21/2010 2:14:10 AM Permalink

I strongly commend you guys on not adding the third option. I think it would have detracted from the memorable nature of the story - not fatally, but significantly so.

It's interesting that you chose to remove the Heartless option - I left the Contessa alone for altruistic reasons. Yeah, she was scared out of her wits and didn't want to go through with the process...but if I broke her, she'd definitely be dead, whereas if I let her be, she'd have a chance at survival.

When I got the heartless bump, that twist of "it's not how you thought of it" did frustrate me, and I did want to go back and undo the decision. (I was also glad that I couldn't, though.) It suffered a bit from the Mass Effect problem: the game gives you a limited amount of info, and you choose a choice which looks like what you want, but Commander Shepard manages to blunder his way into a direct inquiry of a spy rather than engaging in Wry Functionary-esque elliptical comments.

BUT! After all of that, the heartless bump wound up altering how I played my character. Angrier. Colder. More willing to take on nefarious deeds and not ask questions. (Still not willing to let li'l old ladies shiver in the cold, though.) For all the downsides mentioned above, the Contessa storyline as written originally wound up shaping my character far more than it would, if I played it now.

Just my 2 pennies.

PS: Glad to see you folks installed the Captcha! For future reference, if we see spam comments on the blog, what action should us posters take, if any? (I was going to message the EchoBazaar twitter account, but didn't want to hit you guys with info you already knew.)

John Evans
John Evans
7/21/2010 2:22:18 AM Permalink

Yeah, I was certainly nonplussed when my choice to let two lovers stay together resulted in a "Heartless" increase.  I saw it as a blunder in the user interface that I would have to make up for in future gameplay.

iskandra
iskandra
7/21/2010 2:38:07 AM Permalink

I was very happy with no third option. Well, using "happy" in the broadest sense....

I like having to make hard decisions in a game, and both my characters had to choose-my usual character, i.e. "me", chose the first option-been on the melancholy branch ever since. My other character, @RhianJenkins, was deliberately created si I could be as arsey and heartless as I want-she smashed the Comtessa.

So please don't offer an easy solution-I like it the way it is!

Sinope
Sinope
7/21/2010 2:42:26 AM Permalink

What the others said: her "frightened eyes" were, as I read it, frightened of me -- the adventurer who was contemplating whether to kill her.

I agree with you about promoting the kinds of ambiguity that encourage rich player reflection.  In this case, though, I believe that the ambiguity could have been resolved without taking away the choice.  As it was, I didn't know a) whether the Comtessa came willingly, and b) whether the Clay Man's process was indeed a successful method of creating another Clay (Wo)man.  I had to make assumptions, and those assumptions, more than my perception of my character's moral framework, were what guided my choice.

If the assumptions were clarified (she did not consent to this; the process will certainly kill her), I would still have had a difficult moral judgment to make, but it would have been easier for the game and my character to agree on what each choice entailed.

Eric S. Raymond
Eric S. Raymond
7/21/2010 3:25:56 AM Permalink

I, too, let the Contessa be - because I didn't know what the fear in her eyes meant, my reading of the storylet was that she had at least *begun* the conversion process of her own will, and my bias in such situations is always to honor the choices others make and not interfere with them.

I was a little offended by the Heartless bump, if the truth be known.  It seemed to presume a "correct" reading of the story that was not mine. Worse, there was a hint that we are supposed to value (quite possibly misplaced) compassion more than we value a respect for the liberty and choices of others.

"Nah," I thought, "I'm probably reading too much into this.  On the other hand...it's a bunch of Brits who are probably young enough to lapped up the whole Eurosocialist we'll-coerce-you-for-your-own-good thing with their mother's milk and been warped by it, poor bastards.  I wish I knew what they'd been thinking."

So, um, I'm glad you had second thoughts.

Phantom Scribbler
Phantom Scribbler
7/21/2010 3:54:46 AM Permalink

I would have to second what Sinope said, about the assumptions that had to be made based on fairly ambiguous information, especially with regard to whether the process would kill her, and whether she had consented to it, or to going with the Clay Man in the first place.

I will say that I still think this particular storyline could use a third, less disturbing option.  For players who are not reading with an eye toward the issue of consent (for example, the people who were surprised by the heartless bump), it's a troubling but not particularly distressing choice they are asked to make.  For players who *are* considering the question of the Comtessa's consent (especially in the light of the fear in her eyes), the two options are really quite horrifying.  It's the only storyline I've encountered thus far that had no adequate escape for the player who finds it to be too much.

Allandaros
Allandaros
7/21/2010 4:39:04 AM Permalink

@Phantom Scribbler: Certainly the two options are horrifying; there's no "right" choice. But wouldn't adding in a third, less disturbing, option remove the horror present in the other two choices?

(This next bit might be a bit clumsily phrased, bear with me) There is a film series called "Saw," which I have never seen - torture porn isn't my thing. But from what I have heard, the first film provides one of the protagonists with a choice: cut off his foot and maybe live, or die. It's a horrifying, grotesque choice, no doubt about it. But adding in a third, less disturbing option ("push this button and call the cops, who will free you,") removes the nature of the other two choices. I suspect that putting in a 'less disturbing' choice would utterly dilute the nature of the horrific choices the player is faced with.

I'm obviously not a writer or designer for EBZ, just another player. But it strikes me that Fallen London is very much a creepy place, a place where not-very-nice things happen. It's not just mushroom-hopping and catching cats and pirates. And creepy storylines like the Contessa's reinforce that.

Calgary
Calgary
7/21/2010 4:41:29 AM Permalink

"really quite horrifying" - yes, and what a relief! I play RPGs all the time that give me choices like a radio phone-in. Give me a detailed outline of some issue of the day and make me decide am I in favour or against or self-interested. That's not a story it's a personality test. Congrats you are mostly a's that makes you Chaotic Good. When all the choices are wrong, that's a real story.

Fairlight
Fairlight
7/21/2010 4:42:07 AM Permalink

I found this storylet absolutely horrifying, as I was under the impression that whatever she thought she had consented to, this was not it.  I don't even remember if I killed her or not; I only remember being totally horrified at my choices.  I may have let him finish because my friend Tif killed her and we wanted to know what happened the other way, but I honestly don't remember for sure.

I'm not sure what good the third option would be.  You still have to let him go on with it if you decide to let him finish doing it.  In that situation, I don't see how taking his money would make you a worse person.  At least you could buy laudanum so you could sleep after.

Cromage
Cromage
7/21/2010 7:14:18 AM Permalink

Yeah, I never liked the duality either. Thought it was an artificial distinction; brought me out of the story rather than drawing me into it.

Even worse, though, was the "reflection" Opportunity. "Alone at the end"... What end? I let her be; there was no indication that she would die, or that she would mourn her fate, or anything of that nature. It's the same whether you smash her or leave her be; where's the indication of the player's decision?

Michael
Michael
7/21/2010 9:13:31 AM Permalink

I'm perfectly fine with the two choices, but as I also didn't consider my choice to be heartless, I find myself frustrated with the "Remembering the Contessa" card.  I am neither melancholy nor heartless.  "The Contessa.  Can she ever truly be happy?" is not an option.

Lady_Noremon
Lady_Noremon
7/21/2010 10:17:32 AM Permalink

This storyline was the first time my character L.S. Cassius had an encounter with Fallen London's more supernatural side [excluding prisoner's honey]. I chose to leave her there simply as I felt that my character would be terrified and run out of there. I played it as an event that greatly effected L.S. Cassius and even lead them to a state of some confusion briefly.

I think it was a very good to have the choice that was irreversible and yet both gave "a Finder of Heiresses". I am glad that you also decided to remove the Heartless bump to further let players decide for themselves why she was scared and also their choice [instead of going with what gives the better quality]. This is one of the first hard choices a player will encounter and I think that is why it is so memorable.

Cromage
Cromage
7/21/2010 10:27:13 AM Permalink

Actually, I have to know now, re: ambiguity...

The plan was that if you did nothing, the Comtessa would become a Clay Man, right?

Laura
Laura
7/21/2010 1:11:24 PM Permalink

I'm going to give myself away for dense, here. But I totally DID NOT get the irreversible/deadly thing when I played it. I thought she was encased but not yet altered and smashing would free her. So I did and killed her.

Bluntly I HATE this little storylet. The "remembering the comtessa" card upsets me every time it turns up. If I had it to do again after reading this, I'd avoid the finale entirely. I don't like this sort of psychological warfare horror, and doubly so since I misunderstood. It's the one thing I wish I could have redone or, better still, never played or read or heard of.

This kind of story isn't fun. And I'm sorry it exists and isn't easy to spot and opt out of. An easy out (a "good" answer which the mercenary option isn't anyway!!) is all that would make me think otherwise. Many more storylets like this and I'd leave Fallen London. I almost did after just the one.

Yasmeen
Yasmeen
7/21/2010 1:21:18 PM Permalink

The Clay Man tells you that they will 'be stone together' and that 'she cannot be flesh again', yes.

Reynolds
Reynolds
7/21/2010 2:02:03 PM Permalink

People on here saying 'it's no fun'. It's tragedy people, where does it need to be fun? You want fun, go play that game with the cows.

Arthur
Arthur
7/21/2010 4:57:13 PM Permalink

A point: arguably, the "leave them be" choice is implemented already. You don't <I>have</I> to finish the Comtessa quest. You can just hit "perhaps not" when you reach the storylet in question, and (as far as I can tell) that doesn't result in any bar to you progressing your Watchful.

That doesn't provide you with any closure, but I like it that way - you can go back and scratch the itch if it bothers you, but if you're *genuinely* apathetic you could just abandon the case.

For what it's worth, I smashed her. It was the eyes that got to me, and the fact that I'd seen nothing to suggest that she'd actually consented to being turned to stone. (Also the idea of one's partner wiping away your background and reshaping you in their own fashion is deeply creepy.)

Arthur
Arthur
7/21/2010 5:02:50 PM Permalink

Guh. Miswrote the start of that. Imagine it began "Arguably, there's a third option implemented already".

Laura
Laura
7/21/2010 6:33:21 PM Permalink

Reynolds - Echo Bazaar is a game. I play games for fun. This storyline, as it begins and appears up until at least near the end (and all the way TO the end if you think the clay man is just grandstanding, as I did), can be taken for a classic mystery type plot. It doesn't telegraph itself as a tragedy, to my eyes. If it did, I would never have started the storyline, because I play this game for fun, not for tragedy. I want that, I can read the evening news. They'll be happy to sell me all the tragedy I can bear, and then some.

RichD
RichD
7/21/2010 8:12:52 PM Permalink

Well I am pleased that the Heartless bump has been removed and I concur that a middle way should not be added.  One way or another it was a horrible choice to make and I think should remain so.  

The remembrance storylet card annoys me to no end though. For starters, with all of the other amazingly horrible events that crop up in the game, why is only the Comtessa popping up in my thoughts like a weed in the garden of my mind.  It sets this particular adventure off in a corner as if to say, "This was so important that you can't get it out of your head."  Considering the reactions of many here to the choice, that in itself may be fitting.

My main complaint is that it just stops there.  If this memory is really so pervasive that it keeps popping up when so much else is forgotten, then I want some kind of action that it spurs me too.  Whether its revenge, or drowning sorrows, or seeking forgiveness, or even Comtessa.2 where maybe I get it right with the next missing girl, I want Remembering the Comtessa to lead me somewhere through bronze borders and it doesn't.  If its worth remembering then it should be worth building off of.

Fairlight
Fairlight
7/21/2010 9:34:59 PM Permalink

Laura,

I found it horrifying too, but it didn't ruin the game for me at all, it reinforced the horrific aspects of the game.

I do think that everyone plays games for fun but I also think it's important to remember that not everyone's idea of fun is the same.  Some people like being scared and upset in games.

And there's always "perhaps not".

RichD,

I agree.  I've stopped doing remembering the comtessa cards because they never ever go anywhere.  There should be a second storyline, if the cards are going to just keep popping up.  One with a better outcome, or at least the potential for such, ideally.

Herm
Herm
7/21/2010 11:39:03 PM Permalink

Thanks for removing the Heartless bump.  In my view, nothing more need be done.  The bump was misplaced as things stood - the other way you could have addressed the issue, by rewriting the text to make the consequences more clear, would have destroyed the delicious Hobson's choice.

My reasons for my eventual choice - and I spent significant time staring at that block of text while I thought them through, for which kudos! - were also more concerned with "well, they were certainly known to be consorting willingly beforehand, which means that for all anyone can tell she consented to this, at least from the sparse information the game's offered, and it repulses me to kill an innocent on some dubious assumption that anyone *ought* to prefer being dead flesh to living stone, it's not like I'm in any kind of informed position to make a judgment on respective quality of life, and besides I'd be left facing a huge ceramic man wild with grief"... and, well, I could go on but you get the idea.  Certainly a lot more nuanced than "What? It's none of *my* affair."

Since then, I've (or my character has) killed someone permanently in Fallen London.  But they'd done something demonstrably wrong and harmful, and I was much more comfortable making that "public welfare vs. value of an individual's life and autonomy" call.  Nothing else has been as difficult a choice as the Comtessa.

Regarding Yasmeen's almost-question in the OP about to what extent I play my avatar as a character in its own right, the answer is "not very".  I do pen-and-paper roleplay, and will fastidiously play my characters in some computer RPGs as complete individuals, allowing them to surprise me with some of their choices.  And heck, I do some writing myself.  So I do understand playing a role.  However, with EBz I seem to treat my avatar more as a wish-fulfilment extension of myself.  Because I basically want to be Sherlock Holmes and have an Overgoat and ponce around in a smoking jacket and pal up with gargoyles and irritate ancient bodyswapping murderers and <s>use my Difference Engine to</s> fight crime.

Koji
Koji
7/21/2010 11:41:33 PM Permalink

I don't agree with Laura. There are too many games that are just meant to be games, and I find them, although at times satisfying, a base matter. I admire EBZ because of unconventional storylines. Now, I may be a masochist, but I strongly enjoyed the Comtessa storyline. It was tragic, yes--but beautifully so.

I think you are in the wrong for not giving the player a third way out. There are just people who avoid the confrontation. Narrowing it down to these two choices, it means something--it means you're forced to finally face who you are.

I play EBZ because it's fun, yes, but also for its beautiful writing. In some way EBZ differs from your average game because at times the storylines feel like real snippets of a novel or such. And stories don't always have a happy ending. Characters don't get to run away. They have to face confrontation, make a choice--and come to terms with that choice.

You do beautiful work. I admire you lot an awful lot. <3 Keep up the good work.

Koji
Koji
7/21/2010 11:43:20 PM Permalink

Oh, a typo. I'm sorry. I meant to say that I do NOT think you are in teh wrong.

Naoko
Naoko
7/22/2010 8:52:53 AM Permalink

Here's another person who thoroughly enjoyed the Comtessa storyline, but like RichD, I want more. I'm annoyed by the rememberance card, because I keep expecting more to pop up, something to resolve this feeling I have.

But I am glad there is no third option. It's what makes the Bazaar come alive for me, and for that, I thank you. Smile

dragovianknight
dragovianknight
7/22/2010 10:13:44 AM Permalink

Add me to the people who thoroughly enjoyed the Comtessa storyline, but who would like to see the remembrance card either removed or turned into a new storyline. I'm really tired of thinking about the woman and having it go nowhere.

Alexis
Alexis
7/22/2010 1:43:20 PM Permalink

Thanks all! Really interesting to read both the lovers and the hatahs here - very useful feedback.

1. Yes we are in fact basically all Eurosocialists, with a tasty frosting of Zizekian Marxism. Apart from Richard who's a hatchet man for international capitalism.
2. Points well made and taken re: the Countess memory card. It's been enhanced and should only appear once more for any individual. We would like to develop her legacy a little further: we'll see.

Alexis
Alexis
7/22/2010 1:48:34 PM Permalink

btw, Paul has a longer comment coming about the original thinking behind the ending. Fascinating stuff - I wasn't aware of the original details, bar its noir heritage.

Paul
Paul
7/22/2010 2:46:38 PM Permalink

yeah, I wanted to address a couple of the points raised above. Firstly, that heartless bump: yeah, my bad. This was a straightforward mistake that got folded into continuity, as these things sometimes do. The heartless increase is a hangover from an earlier version of the Comtessa story, which was conceived as cheap morality scare in the style of EC Comics, with bits of The Big Sleep thrown in for flavour. In that version, there was little or no ambiguity: it was clear that the countess was an evil-hearted femme fatale who duped her clay lover into stealing her family's cash, intending to  abscond across the unterzee, no doubt laughing musically as she went.

Instead, she got her ghastly comeuppance - entombed for an eternity with her obsessive lover - and the choice for the player was simply whether or not to approve a Fate Worse Than Death. Nasty, but simple. Hence, the game judged the decision to walk away as heartless.

However, on reading it back, I found that I really couldn't get behind that kind of extreme Struwwelpeter-style morality. It seemed narrow, hysterical and misogynist, giving no credit to the Clay Men as feeling entities or the Comtessa as a human being rather than, you know, Cruella Deville in a mushroom hat. So I changed it, seeding implications of a maybe-love-affair from the start, and making the comtessa a more pleasant person by report and reputation.

Which was all well and good, but I couldn't get away from that final scene in the Clay Warrens. The image of the countess transformed into clay - the object of desire literally placed on a pedestal, whether willingly or unwillingly - just seemed too powerful to pass up.

At the time, Alexis and I were talking a great deal about a concept that I called elliptical narrative and he called Fires In The Desert. It's discussed in more detail here http://bit.ly/cothfu but the basic idea is that we provide narrative signposts, whereas the journey between them belongs to the player. The comtessa storyline seemed like a good place to try this out in-story, rather than between stories.

In other words, the lack of objective information provided to the player is a deliberate decision, and I argued fairly hard to keep it. The choices available are bleak because there is no plausible third way. Sure, you could attack the Clay Man, or raise an army to invade the clay warrens, or even go shopping for an appropriate wedding gift, but the fact remains that this particular story is over before you get there. All you can do is register your personal reaction to it.

Generally, you have all the facts available before a game asks you to do that, but in this case, you don't, and that's just the way the cookie crumbles. I tend to think of it as Echo Bazaar's version of the Kobiyashi Maru, but without the option to cheat. I always thought Kirk was an asshole for cheating anyway.

RichD
RichD
7/22/2010 6:52:18 PM Permalink

Alexis:  Now that is what I call service.  Laughing  This is why I am so impressed by the Failbetter Team.  You are always willing to listen to your fans and when it makes sense to you, you act on it swiftly.  Glad I spoke up.

Herm
Herm
7/22/2010 7:19:07 PM Permalink

That and they're willing to explain things using diagrams and cool phrases and slides with tigers on them.  I'm learning a lot, both consciously and, I suspect, un-.

Zha Ewry
Zha Ewry
7/22/2010 9:33:33 PM Permalink

I think the stark choice fits perfectly with the feel of Fallen London. Things are dark, messy, and the constant sense that nobody knows the full story of what is happening is enhanced by not getting an easy way out.

I do think that the follow on card, and the reflection, currently don't play well. As several have said, it feels like a story begging to be told.

Thanks to all here for a wonderful discussion. I play Echo Bazaar because of the story lines, the intense sense of atmosphere and trying to tease apart little bits of the back story. Peeking behind the scenes to see how much thought goes into making that happen is a delight.

~ Z

Cromage
Cromage
7/22/2010 11:04:11 PM Permalink

Thank you for sharing your insight, Paul.

However, I believe that there is one piece of ambiguous information that should have been resolved: what would happen to the Comtessa if you left her alone. (Clay Person vs living statue)

Because otherwise, the story is not, in fact, over before you get there. There is a third option (whether you program it in or not), and it reads, "Pull up a chair and wait for the Clay Man to finish." Or "Investigate further." (incidentally, part of the Koyabashi scenario is the time crunch)

The problem with the scenario as it stands is that the only way the "terrible choice" can survive is either if the Comtessa would just be a statue, or if you somehow didn't have time to investigate. If the outcome is "Clay Person," then suddenly the only real decision becomes "leave her be" since even if she didn't agree to it, smashing her mid-turning-process is a bloody horrible thing to do, on par with killing someone who was crippled in a car accident before they've woken up.

All this ignores the fact that you're changing the Morality Play from a misogynistic one to a potentially classist one, but... eh. That is why I hate morality plays, and cheer Kirk--not because I don't believe in a no-win scenario, but because if you are going to cheat, then I am going to cheat too.

Jonquil
Jonquil
7/23/2010 1:17:02 AM Permalink

I came to the storylet from the context of a fairy-tale reader, and in the fairy tale, you smash the statue and the princess arises from it, unhurt.   (See also: Iron John) I thought I was choosing between breaking the Stone Man's heart and the Comtessa's freedom.  Boy, was I surprised...

I have an extension that would be lovely sometime, when you get around to it -- it would be wonderful if there were a longer version of "Reminisce" that linked to the storylet text with the buttons disabled.  I often regret not being able to reread the full text of resolution cards from storylets and ambition stages.

Laura
Laura
7/23/2010 2:04:10 AM Permalink

Jonquil - yes! Myself also and I did not like the surprise.

I can see where people love this, but it is not the sort of thing I enjoy and I felt cheated/tricked because it was, IMO, poorly constructed and telegraphed what I was getting into.

I love ebz's storytelling style and rich world. But I don't like this story at all. I'm glad the reminisce card will finally be something I can get rid of, at least.

Cromage
Cromage
7/23/2010 2:31:34 AM Permalink

Jonquil: If EBZ is a fairytale, it's definitely of the Grimm Brother's variety. Let's not forget that Parliament was devoured by bats; this is not a very nice world, even if it's filled with very polite people. And Cthulhoids. But maybe that's a failure of your Lovecraftian education... a shame.

Frankly, of all the ambiguities in the storyline, the irreversibility of the process was the most obvious. It was right in the text! How more obvious can you get? (besides maybe in the choice itself)

Vixy
Vixy
7/23/2010 4:25:06 AM Permalink

I'm agreed with those who enjoyed the story, but want more.

In particular, the memory card that keeps coming up annoys the hell out of me.  Why are my only choices in thinking about it to be melancholy or heartless (two qualities that I consider negative and don't want to have)?  What if I think I did the best thing for her?  What if I actually believe she's happier now?  The memory-on-the-bridge card is actually the *only* thing about this storylet that I disliked.

kylee
kylee
7/23/2010 5:00:35 AM Permalink

@Vixy I played that card today and there's a new, third option that's just what you want! It delighted me, actually.

Herm
Herm
7/23/2010 3:29:33 PM Permalink

Ooh, I look forward to seeing that new card.  In fact, I've noticed one or two other Opportunities that have recently been updated to add more delightful choices, including the flower-sending devil (such a dear thing).

Relatedly, there's a storyline similar-ish to the Comtessa's that really put my exquisite Neathy nose out of joint: namely my foray into arachnology.  (It's a plotline for high Dangerous, and I have put it in terms with as few bespoilers as possible, but I'd avoid reading on if you're a spoiler purist.)

This chitinous mini-plot culminated in my attempting to have a conversation with someone about a subject of which I'm a passionate Scholar, hoping for results more interesting than a simple brawl.  Sadly, it backfired (also causing me to do something I'd hitherto carefully contrived never to do), and now I shan't get to see what would have happened if I'd chosen to get into a fight instead.

Which was a perfectly fair outcome in the context of the game.  It just annoyed me.  If I ever seen that d--ned wretched, smug creature again I shall come home with a pair of new boots!  *shakes fist*

Loren
Loren
7/24/2010 1:43:30 AM Permalink

I was definitely upset by this turn in the story.  I didn't see it coming, I didn't like it, and I didn't think either choice provided was true to my character.  If there were a third way, I'd like to see a path that allows you to try and save her -- her life *and* her humanity -- even if it ultimately ends up being impossible.

S.
S.
7/24/2010 8:29:22 PM Permalink

I was interested to hear about the earlier Big Sleep version of the story, and while I think that in that version the choice of whether or not to punish the misbehaving woman has its own problems, I think the revision must have erased far too much of the Comtessa's agency.  

She is so elusive that she becomes an object being fought over by others until the moment your character steps in and can only guess at her consent based on the say-so of her lover.  There is no way of speaking to her directly within the storyline at all, and that's where the misogyny comes in.  I do think it's a problem the player is only given options that continue to walk all over the Comtessa's agency.  "Ask the Comtessa what she wants" is precluded even though it's something obvious you could do if she had any way of communicating left at all (even through her eyes) so in any way that counts, whatever you do when you finish the storyline, you *haven't* found the heiress.  You've been forced to project your assumptions on her, and only been given biased information about her even when you're in the same space.  

It's one of the first storylines you come across that doesn't allow you to replay it to find out the other ending, which also makes it potentially traumatic for a player who has come to understand Fallen London as a place where endings are provisional and relatively easily reversed...and the death-is-reversible understanding of the setting would *entirely* support a fairy-tale reading of the world where the princess wakes up again.  (The rat storyline was a milder introduction to this more committed branching level of play where storylets can't be repeated, but it wasn't the one I encountered first.)  

On a different tack: I got one opportunity card after I finished the storylet that suggested I might have seen the pair in a cafe...or maybe just a pair that looked like them.  I only got it once and I assumed it was retired in favor of the Crossing a Bridge card, but I really appreciated having had it once, because it allowed me to believe that she survived and found happiness...which supported the choice my character made on her behalf. (Because I chose to believe that she *had* consented and therefore feared me, not her lover...but that's how I/my character read the scene.)

I do think the forced choice with no evidently happy ending was powerful, but I still think the Comtessa only exists as an object within it, and that's where I would like to see the story change.  

Also, my captcha is deadens beauty.  Just sayin'.

Catherine Raymond
Catherine Raymond
7/25/2010 5:45:32 AM Permalink

I decided to smash the statue.  

I was at first dissatisfied with the attribute change I got from the game.  Then I realized that such attribute changes could be viewed as the way your persona would be viewed by the society of Fallen London at large for the action you had just committed--not as any judgment of whether you had done right or wrong in some larger context.  So overall I do not see a need for you to change your handling of the Comtessa storylet.

Jota
Jota
7/25/2010 10:28:52 AM Permalink

I don't think that the idea that she's terrified of what she's becoming is at all inconsistent with the idea that she's intentionally chosen her fate. There are times when intentionally choosing to do something that frightens you is a natural and important part of living your life.

kbmartin2
kbmartin2
8/2/2010 8:32:07 AM Permalink

The Comtessa ending is the only truly moving (disturbing!) story element up to this point.  It was horrible and brilliant.  I had to take the day off from the game.

It is natural to feel upset when you don't have any option that feels good.  But sometimes, that is life.

The only think I would do differently is, you would probably walk away for a reason other than "who are you to argue with true love," especially given that you're not clear how the Comtessa feels about it.  You might walk away because you feel powerless -- smashing her being even worse to you (justifying Melancholy as well) -- or because you think she deserves it.  (THAT would justify Heartless.)

But definitely don't add any option that allows us to walk away feeling good.  Sometimes bad things happen and we can't stop them.

vito excalibur
vito excalibur
8/3/2010 9:03:47 AM Permalink

I like your decision! Definitely agree with the conclusion against adding a third, more neutral option. It's a better game if you make us get more involved.

DWeird
DWeird
8/4/2010 6:13:22 PM Permalink

As a person who has repeatedly caused devilless-related final deaths just to get on good terms with hell, what I really wanted was a third option of a slightly different kind.

You know how just how *cool* it would be to have an endlessly weeping stone statue in my rooms? Cleaning the puddles would be a chore, but I'd manage.

(The above would... probably warrant a Heartless increase. Probably.)

Meili
Meili
8/24/2010 5:37:18 PM Permalink

I smashed the statue not knowing it was a permadeath for the Comtessa but I would probably have still chosen it even if I had known since the creepiness of the situation made me feel like it was an abduction and unwilling transformation.

I interpreted her frightened eyes as being frightened of her current situation, not of me.

After all, why would she be afraid of me? I (as a character in Fallen London) have offered neither one of them any violence at any time. Nor does my character have a bad reputation as some sort of serial killer. I'm not Jack of Smiles, you know?

Her lover is right there and could presumably defend her (btw why didn't he stop me from killing his lover? plot hole!) so she wouldn't really feel that scared.

I could see where she could be *worried* at being found out but not *frightened* of me. I am a watchful and charismatic lady, not some scary, violent maniac.

Laughingrat
Laughingrat
8/26/2010 10:11:53 PM Permalink

@Cromage: the events and story Jonquil mentioned *are* from tales the Grimms collected.

To the Failbetter team: I'm only just now leveling up to the Comtessa storyline, so please excuse me if I am asking something redundant, but I haven't seen anything in the post or comments that indicates that the player can find out what the Comtessa really wants or is thinking.  Is there a reason she's without agency or a voice?  Wouldn't an option to find out more about what's going on in her head provide an interesting twist to the story, while also allowing players to take a morally-ambiguous route if they still wanted to?

Jha
Jha
8/31/2010 7:00:10 AM Permalink

Like Laughingrat, I'm also working my way through the Comtessa storyline and wondering if I'd actually ever get to talk to the chit. Looks like I won't, which like S says, deprives her of her agency and that's pretty problematic. Which might be the point of the story - that we never get all the details and as such can't make informed decisions - but it might be nice to explore another story which allows us to get in touch with the target, rather than talking over the target.

Yasmeen
Yasmeen
8/31/2010 5:59:04 PM Permalink

Hi Laughingrat & Jha

I'd respond in two ways,

Firstly, I wonder if there's a possibility here that you are using 'agency' to mean something quite specific that not everyone might understand in this context?

As I read it, 'agency' is the capacity of an individual to exercise free will and act independently. No character in the game has any agency by this definition. They're fictional characters. Only the player can make decisions.

But if (as it seems you are doing) we take 'agency' to mean 'actions a fictional character is described as having taken and that are capable of being defined retrospectively as moral and/or emotional decisions made by that character, and which may (or may not) allow us* to attribute certain traits or other defining aspects to that character**...
the Comtessa in the text has plenty of 'agency'.

She decides to run away. She decides to lead Daddy on a wild goose chase. After that, how far she is complicit in what happens to her is not stated in the narrative. It is your*** reading and only your reading of the text that she is in this situation against her will, and your reading only that deprives her of her 'agency' by that definition. For example, as discussed, the fear in her eyes is a matter of interpretation, and fear that you will drag her back home against her will is an equally valid interpretation of the text as written.

We could argue that, given the societal and parental expectations that form part of the structure around the Comtessa within the narrative, by choosing to run away from home and pursue a new life, she is asserting an independence that should be read as proto-feminist.

Secondly, though, I do kind of suspect that the heart of your objection is not about how the Comtessa is described at all. It reads as if you're objecting to the narrative decision that the player does not meet her in time to get a chance to ask her what she wants from the situation, why she's there, etc. But it's a detective story. A Gothic detective horror story. And sometimes in stories the protagonist arrives too late. For the sake of the story, not to follow some kind of misogynist agenda. Certainly, no one is 'talking over' her.


I think there's a real danger in insisting that all fictional characters be given the chance to explain themselves in their own words. As a general point, stories have always allowed us to use our imaginations to interpret subjective observations of characters' actions. It makes for a better story if there are ambiguities, different and conflicting perspectives and possibilities.   Good stories reflect our actual experience of the world. We can't know what other people are thinking. Even if we ask them. We can guess and react accordingly, but that's all.




*without going into the question of what we mean by reader: the 'ideal' reader, the 'actual' reader, and so on.

**(Although only as far as it is further reconstructed in the reading of the narrative by said reader*, that is)...

***'You' meaning the 'reader'*, of course

Ryesen_Grear
Ryesen_Grear
12/30/2010 4:24:20 AM Permalink

I misunderstood that she would be killed if I smashed her too. I thought that she had been kidnapped, and forced into the stone, that was why she was frightened... and that if I smashed the clay off of her, she would then not be encased, and I would have saved her from becoming clay. Fear, to me, shows that something bad is happening to that person. Then I asked questions. Why did she not say anything?  The clay man could speak... but why could she not?

In the end, I was I wrong that she would be free. Then I felt bad for smashing her. But I suppose that's the nature of fallen london... you have to make discoveries as you go along, because it is kind of an "opposite world." Though it's more slanted than opposite....

I just wish sometimes that I could go back and do that storylet again.

Sir Knight
Sir Knight
2/2/2011 5:49:09 AM Permalink

Although I see what you are going for with the two options, I feel that this specific storylet is forcing my character to act in a way he wouldn't otherwise -- on a whim. With his prime stat being Watchful, my character is more or less a detective and a researcher. He does not make any decisions without a dossier, knowing every last detail about his mark and quite possibly having a better understanding of the overall situation than the culprits themselves. Certainly the results of the procedure, the events past the Comtessa's disappearance and her intentions would interest him.

Once again disregarding the author's intent of the storylet as a whole, it is much more likely that my character would pick an option to stick around for a bit longer and get the answers for the questions that have been mentioned here more than once. He certainly has the means to do so, either through brute force, threats and intimidation or a skilfully directed dialogue. Once he knows all the necessary details, he could make a decision based on what he thinks is right (or wrong Tong) as opposed to acting on a gut feeling and hurrying home for tea.

Keep up the good work!

Sir Knight
Sir Knight
2/2/2011 5:50:15 AM Permalink

PS: Yes, I too smashed her and I too though that it wouldn't be quite as lethal. Oh well, we can still glue her together. Tong

zernoelzer
zernoelzer
2/12/2011 11:33:26 PM Permalink

I like both choices for the dramatic and moral choices they imbue the storyline but I feel that a third option, one that has the character acting through more informed choices would not necessarily dilute the efects of the first two options and satisfy the completist in me.

The way to go about this may simply be to offer a third choice like, say, employ a device that may be used to communicate with the comtessa and determine her willingness in the affair. However, this third choice would only appear through, perhaps the character's having finished some other storyline that isn't immediately evident as connected with the comtessa storyline, like a storylet appearing in the shadowy area of fallen london, perhaps? To rephase it, have the third option appear as a kind of easter egg that upon introspection also makes sense story-wise.

Meili's Runescape Blog
Meili's Runescape Blog
3/8/2011 5:22:18 PM Permalink

Is there a follow-up if you leave them alone and don't kill the Comtessa?

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